Failing to achieve darker tones

[Francoise]

Hi, I'm currently trying my hand at erasing techniques but I'm running into a hurdle: there's no way I can draw THAT dark squares with a 4B pencil (I'm using the Staedtler mechanical pencils and leads). The paper I'm using is Canson 1557 in 180 gsm. It comes in a very light tooth but it's still more textured than smooth bristol. I would have thought achieving darker tones would thus be a little easier.
I filled in the squares with the flat side of a chisel point. Since I could achieve - at best - a midtone grey - I tried adding additional layers with the sharp side. Still no luck.
When I did the first exercises -shading the house model for instance - I found it almost impossible to go as dark as the demo.
Did anybody run into the same issue?
Can someone help?
Thanks

[Mike Sibley]

When I did the first exercises -shading the house model, for instance - I found it almost impossible to go as dark as the demo.
Did anybody run into the same issue?

No.

Oh, you wanted more?

...there's no way I can draw THAT dark squares with a 4B pencil... I filled in the squares with the flat side of a chisel point. Since I could achieve - at best - a midtone grey - I tried adding additional layers with the sharp side. Still no luck.

That surprises me. Usually, the flat face with as much pressure as I think is required, does the job. Then, if necessary, I use the edge. And that really gets into the tooth. But I do use a 2B in those demos, which might make a difference.

Might I suggest you try experimenting with blacks before you return to the erasing? Just grab some paper, like your Canson, and then try to destroy it. Seriously, you need to know two things: how much pressure you need to apply to obtain different values; and how much pressure your paper can stand before it breaks up.

Also - and this is important - do have a smooth and hard surface directly under your paper. If you're using a pad, or more than one sheet, much of the pressure you apply will be lost when the paper sinks into the sheets beneath. A hard, smooth surface will ensure ALL the pressure is applied.

Post an image or two of what you've managed so far, and maybe we can help more.

[LindasPencils]

and this is important - do have a smooth and hard surface directly under your paper.

This is a key point. So many times I have to tell students this - don't draw on a bouncy, cushiony surface like a pad of paper!
One way I teach to get darks is to layer and layer, alternating the stroke directions in each layer - so horizontal, then vertical, then diagonal, then circular, slowly building and building up the graphite to a good dark. Try to avoid too much pressure as that creates shine.

[PogArt-Ttoo]

Did anybody run into the same issue?
Can someone help?
Thanks

I'm far away from standard graphite pencil meaning/practice, as I ran into experimenting long ago...
I don't use any pencils that do shine, unless it's the effect I'm after, like shining metal blade of the knife, or leaf reflecting the light maybe...
Therefore I'm probably the last person who you should listen to.
But, if you like what I say here it goes.
I'm avoiding common graphite pencils because they shining on the paper, and I couldn't achieve as pitch black tones as I wanted.
The above did push me to experiment with other brands of pencils that are manufactured to limit this shining effect...
So my point in here is - don't be afraid to try other pencil manufacturers, and use those pencils which works for your needs?

[Mike Sibley]

I'm avoiding common graphite pencils because they're shining on the paper, and I couldn't achieve as pitch black tones as I wanted.

That reminds me of something I forgot to mention earlier.

Personally, I take no notice of the light shining off the graphite. Because, on completion, I spray the drawing with a WORKABLE FIXATIVE. That dries with a matt finish (so it can receive more drawing) and that finish removes almost all the sheen.

Once that's removed, the blacks and darks deepen in value.

They actually appear to increase in value, but they don't of course. They simply exhibit their true values, previously lightened visually by the sheen.

With time and practice, you begin to make allowances for that shift in value while drawing - knowing that the darks you're creating will later look as dark as you intended.

[PogArt-Ttoo]

With time and practice, you begin to make allowances for that shift in value while drawing - knowing that the darks you're creating will later look as dark as you intended.

In here you also have reminded me of oil painting...
When the paint is still wet (workable) the tone shift appears different to when it dries out...
So you mixing the colour hue to match the one on canvas, and then next day you have to adjust it by additional fresh mix of the oil paint again, because you can notice subtle difference between freshly mixed colour to the dry painting...
Furthermore - the tonal difference is sensible to brush tapping too!
What I mean is that if you place the blob of the mixed paint in one off stroke will be different in appearance to the other blob that you may wanted to rubbing with the brush (I mean multiple strokes).
So to have the purest mixed colour on the canvas it's wise to avoid multiple strokes, the less strokes the paint is applied with - the purer the colour - if that come in sense...
It was causing the headache when I was practicing .
So either you can accept that and carry on, or else ...
Well...
Then you learn your colours, and the more you painting the more knowledgeable you get, and you can predict the next day appearance of the colour you've mixed today
Very wise advice Mike

[Brenda]

As a complete beginner this post poses the same question I was going to ask and also gives me some answers (yet to be applied). So I just wanted to post that it may be helpful to beginners to add something to the videos about shine and fixatives, as well as not using a pad to lean on. It would have helped me a lot!

Thanks for this brilliant site!

[Mike Sibley]

As a complete beginner, this post poses the same question I was going to ask and also gives me some answers (yet to be applied). So I just wanted to post that it may be helpful to beginners to add something to the videos about shine and fixatives,

Thanks, Brenda. Shine and fixatives? Already covered.

So, to save me rambling on about it again, here it is: FIXATIVE TYPES and USES.

If you need more info, let me know.

[Brenda]

Thank you Mike…I am still on the basic videos so that video was still a long way ahead! My problem is/was that I recently attended a course where we were told to stop as soon as we saw “the shine” and to apply a softer lumagraph pencil on top. So now I’m starting again from the beginning with your videos and book. Thank you.

[Mike Sibley]

…I am still on the basic videos so that video was still a long way ahead!

Not so. It's a video I made for YouTube and not part of the Beginners section. I'm beginning to think I should be putting a video index together. There are now 60+ videos, and even I can't recall what's in each one.

My problem is/was that I recently attended a course where we were told to stop as soon as we saw “the shine” and to apply a softer Lumograph pencil on top.

Theoretically, I can see that might work - maybe. But I tend to ignore the shine while I'm working, safe in the knowledge that most of the shine will be banished by the fixative, and that will restore the values to those I intended.

Also, if you plan to sell prints of your drawing, the shine plays no part at all, since all the prints will be matte.

This blog post might help you, too: Graphite vs Charcoal.
If you scroll down that page until you see "search" in the left-hand bar, and enter "fixative", you should find a couple of other posts too.