Ancient Souls

[kwheller]

Happy New Year everyone! I went to Alaska in 2023 and had the opportunity to see muskox! What magnificent and ancient creatures! This drawing is still in progress and could use some feedback about the muskox and in particular about snow. I am from the southern US and rarely see snow. However, I have references showing when there is only snow (e.g., no tress to put snow on) so I have ideas. Any suggestions are great appreciated. This drawing is on Strathmore Bristol 500 plate, with Staedtler pencils (6 H to 6B). Thanks!

[Mike Sibley]

I love the look of resignation on their faces!

The Muskox look great. The snow looks OK, too, but I'm not entirely sure if we'd know it was snow if you hadn't mentioned it. It could be soft sand, for example.

I suggest you look online through photos of things in snow. Then try to work out why you KNOW it's snow.

For example - this is just a suggestion and guess - as the right-hand Muskox has sunk into the snow, I think the snow might have a slightly rounded edge? Because it's been dragged down by the Muskox. Or you might find snow has other features. You're looking for the unique ones that say "this is snow".

That said, I think your snow is fine as it is, but it could be made more clear.

KATHY-snow.jpg

For example, this edge around the toy is broken, with signs of jagged crystals. And the extreme edge is slightly translucent. It cannot be sand or soil, only snow.

[kwheller]

I love the look of resignation on their faces!

The Muskox look great. as the right-hand Muskox has sunk into the snow, I think the snow might have a slightly rounded edge? Because it's been dragged down by the Muskox. Or you might find snow has other features. You're looking for the unique ones that say "this is snow".

Hi Mike! Thanks for the feedback. Very helpful! Yes, the slightly rounded edge makes more sense so I will definitely put that in as I continue to work on drawing the snow. I have another problem. The drawing was meant to be 2 adult muskox with one in front and one in back. I did watch your wonderful video on Recession and Depth (and have 2 books on perspective). I thought I was using overlap and scale (see attached figure). However, one person commented "how cute, a mom and its baby". Well, I guess it could be a fully mature male and a 3 year old male muskox (they both have horns so definitely 2 males). Where have I gone wrong?

Horizontal RESize PERSPECTIVE muskox.jpg

[Mike Sibley]

Photo fixed for you.

I can see what you mean, and follow your reasoning, but... Ooooohhh! I like puzzles!

Theoretically, the perspective should work. BUT, physically, they are side by side. Touching. We're bound to read them as being mother and youngster, or just big and small... because that's the only solution that fits what we're seeing.

Not easy to explain, but..... If you kept on laying Muskox against Muskox in a line, I think it would take hundreds before they became invisibly small on the horizon?

And, in this case, surely the smaller one is further back, not appreciably further away? Its left foot is probably against the other Muskox's elbow. So it should appear to be almost the same size.

And returning to the snow... that line along the side of the big Muskox looks artificially perfect to me. You have the shoulder at the front, a round belly in the centre, and a hip at the rear. So, wouldn't that edge bulge in and out along its length? I'm not saying it should, just that I think it probably would.

[kwheller]

Photo fixed for you.

Theoretically, the perspective should work. BUT, physically, they are side by side. Touching. We're bound to read them as being mother and youngster, or just big and small... because that's the only solution that fits what we're seeing.

So, wouldn't that edge bulge in and out along its length? I'm not saying it should, just that I think it probably would.

Thanks Mike for your helpful explanation and suggestions. I think I see what you are saying about the perspective, but is there something I could have done differently to get the brain to see the perspective of one in front and one behind? I suppose if I drew the horizon line higher it may have made a difference? Perhaps this is a function of having the vanishing point directly horizontal in line to the left? (I usually have it more up so the perspective lines are more angled up)??

Good point about the bulge. I tried to bulge that edge more, is that what you were thinking? There is so much fur there...
So this is what I have done with the snow so far. Thoughts?

(The picture hasn't changed color. Its evening so I don't have any natural light on it and apparently this light bulb has made the drawing a bit tinted).

[PogArtTi]

Hi my friend, you’ve made me jealous as I did see these stunning animals only through the wired mesh…
Mike has already discussed the matter and shared his advice, which I have benefit myself as well.
This is unfortunately very common to take the smaller animal appearance for being a baby/young.
It’s happening simply because of lack of knowledge of the viewer, and putting not enough attention to what they seeing …
If they would have THINK for a bit longer what they’re looking at, I’m sure they wouldn’t so readily read your interesting drawing incorrectly.
To my eyes it’s very nice artwork, with attention to detail etc.
Best wishes for 2024 !!!
Art.

[Mike Sibley]

Well... I don't know what happened to my carefully crafted post of yesterday.... but I think I looked at a preview and then forgot to actually post it! Then shut it down overnight without saving the draft... Aaaaaaggghh!

But I still have the graphics, and a hazy memory of what I said. So....

I think I see what you are saying about the perspective, but is there something I could have done differently to get the brain to see the perspective of one in front and one behind?

There are times that sizing visually, and using logic, are better than sizing scientifically with perspective. In this case, the two animals are touching, so perspective recession is going to be almost undetectable.

That you placed one further back creates the only recession needed. So, having said that, I thought I'd better check to see if my thoughts were valid.

KATHY-Muskox.jpg

I resized the left-hand Muskox. It is now very slightly smaller than the foreground Muskox, and its foot is in the same place. To assist with sizing, I measured the distance between the pupils of the right-hand Muskox (the black line) and then moved the line to the left-hand animal. As you see, it is now only slightly smaller. And I think that's all that's required. They both appear to be adults. And if someone questions the smaller size, it might be that they are perhaps female and male - partners, or brother and sister.

Good point about the bulge. I tried to bulge that edge more, is that what you were thinking? There is so much fur there... So this is what I have done with the snow so far. Thoughts?

I think the snow now says "snow". That previously smooth and perfect edge could easily have been sand. Now the edge is more broken, it most definitely cannot be sand, and snow is the only available solution to what we're seeing. And that's reinforced by the way the snow is brushing up against the animals.

At least, I think that's what I said.

[PogArtTi]

As you've given us the post-processed picture it's all come in sense right now.
No confusion what is what.
That's the lesson of how important even subtle things are, and how much they can change...

[kwheller]

because of lack of knowledge of the viewer, and putting not enough attention to what they seeing …
If they would have THINK for a bit longer what they’re looking at, I’m sure they wouldn’t so readily read your interesting drawing incorrectly.
To my eyes it’s very nice artwork, with attention to detail etc.
Art.

Hi Art, So nice to hear from you my friend. So glad you have seen the wonderful muskox as well! Good point. I think sometimes people just glance at the artwork, but then I feel I didn't draw them in. Of course a lot of people have no idea what a muskox is. Thanks so much for your input. Also, Several times you have made a final comment on artwork I have posted and I read it and you always bring a smile to my face (even if I forgot to respond). Happy New Year!

[kwheller]

There are times that sizing visually, and using logic, are better than sizing scientifically with perspective. In this case, the two animals are touching, so perspective recession is going to be almost undetectable.

That you placed one further back creates the only recession needed. So, having said that, I thought I'd better check to see if my thoughts were valid.

I resized the left-hand Muskox. It is now very slightly smaller than the foreground Muskox, and its foot is in the same place. To assist with sizing, I measured the distance between the pupils of the right-hand Muskox (the black line) and then moved the line to the left-hand animal.

Hi Mike, Such a great point about there being times when visual sizing and logic are better than sizing scientifically with perspective. I certainly learned that in this drawing. I really appreciate how you resized the left muskox (and your explanation of how you did it). Yes, it definitely looks like two adult muskoxs! I really understand now.

Artistically, I do prefer the one I drew with the left one appearing much smaller, regardless of the interpretation. I think I will redo the boss (large base of horns) on the left one to make him into a female (they don't have a boss). There is usually a size difference between male (5 feet at shoulder and weighing 600 to 800 lbs) and females (4 feed at shoulder and weighing 400 to 500 lbs). Oh I do love trying to be accurate

Thanks for your pointer about making the "sand" into snow. I think I will still play around with it a little bit and as well as the mountains. I tend to make the subject in more detail, but want to detail the background a bit more (but keeping it as a background). I will probably change the face of the right muskox a bit as well. Its getting there!

Thanks so much for all your help!!