Charge for commission - confusion...

[PogArtTi]

Hi dear friends, I like to share one concern with you.
It's about commission charge.

So...
To me it is matter what subject, or how many, but I'm confused if I'm not overthinking this?

Let say I'm about to draw A3 size portrait of a dog.
Let say I ask for £10.

Now I'm getting to the point.

What if customer would have ask to draw his 3 dogs, and a good looking background of the woods, or such...
Still £10 charge for this A3 drawing?

This is my point.
I'm usually giving to customer idea of how much it will cost by pricing the drawing sizes...
A5 for £2.50
A4 for £5
A3 for £10
But then I do discuss the matter of subject, how many on single sheet.., considering how long the drawing my take to finish.

Is it alright from your point of view?
Should I take under consideration not only the size of the drawing, but also how much work it'll require to get it done?...
For example the A3 drawing of the single grass leaf on the middle will take much less than portrait of a dog...
At this point I probably for sure wouldn't want to charge full price of A3, but regarding such easy subject it would may be even half the price, if you know I mean...

I'll be appreciate for your thoughts please.
Thanks

[Mike Sibley]

I used to base my prices on the time I expected it to take.

However, I DON'T mean I charged by the hour. I don't believe it works that way. You have to be flexible. But you do need some structure - so you can compare job A to job B and form a sliding scale.

To be honest I think you just need to draw right now and not be too concerned about the cost. It will eventually sort itself out. Of course, you will need to increase your prices from time to time, if only to control the number of commissions you are receiving. That can be scary. You will leave some existing clients in your wake, but the new clients never know your previous rates.

To get a third-party idea of the value of your work, try talking to a gallery or two. Not for them to take on your work but to estimate its worth. They're the guys at the coal face - they know what art is worth. It at least gives you a starting point.

Quick true story: Back in the days before the Internet and when I was attending shows - not art shows, I frequented County Fairs and Championship Dog Shows. I was at the East Of England show for three days when a German couple asked if they could sell my work in Dortmund. Some time after the show I received a letter from them asking how much I charged for a commissioned study of a dog. I told them 40 pounds. They wrote back and said "surely you made a mistake and meant 400 pounds. Of course, I replied thanking them for spotting my error... and I never charged £40 for anything again. I had a new benchmark to work from.

Ultimately, you can charge whatever you want to, but you really need to charge what people will pay.

At Windsor Show I was selling art while there were paintings in the marquee behind mind costing £100,000 or more. I sold. They took theirs home.

[PogArtTi]

Thank you Mike for your keen reply and good story as usual.
So your advice is to keep drawing commissions , whatever they are, because in my position any commission is good commission...
So not matter if there's two faces or single one, I shouldn't overcomplicated the cost, counting down single items on the subject to add or reduce the price for the whole...
I get your point!
It would be stupid calculate the commission by counting down the multiple items included...
Like for example if the subject is wearing hat = £1 more to the price, if the hat is large = extra 50pense ...
An additional face = £10more to the price etc.
Yes, it sounds stupid to me right now.
Thank you!
I couldn't figure it out by myself...
I used to ask for £70 for A3 size drawing or painting.
Even last year...
But I felt I don't like to work on to strange subject for this much and be happy...
I'd rather refuse it, and draw my favourite subject to enjoy it fully.
So when I was asked by work mate to draw his daughter I said £80 for A4, and £110 for A3.
Honesty?
I wanted him to get scared and bugged off, or accept it and draw his princess with full will to do my best to please him.
He said yes, even if I've never have asked nobody for that much!?
I just asked him for the money that will satisfy my efforts, and make me willing to do it for him...
This is also gonna be my guide point, and I like your *slide idea...
I need to have some guideline of pricing my arts...
It's never been easy task to me, even now, after few years of drawing/painting I'm still confused of how much to charge.
He accepted it, and therefore the above prices became my permanent fees for commission.
Today coincidentally another workmate asked for commission...
He mention that he used to do calligraphy, so I said I do it too to write the thankful letter for the client, which I'm attaching to the drawing...
He went - what drawing you do...
Then I did show him few, and this is how I have him on my fb page
He did accept the price too, so here we are.
It seems the price I set works well?
It's not too low, but it seems it isn't too steep too?
Just good enough that people seems to consider it as an affordable?
I have one more case to share...
One lad started chatting regarding commission of the old car.
Large size, at least 60cm/50cm but maybe even larger...
While we were discussing the subject matter, we've got to the point of the price...
I said for such huge size I'll need much more time to finish it, also I'll use more graphite lead to cover it, and then the paper cost etc, but we were actually considering to draw it on to the plywood...
Nevertheless, I did ask for £200, saying that it will be first time I'll do such large size drawing and on the wood for first time, so it will be a good experience for me too, and because I'll benefit while doing this commission, I will be happy to reduce the price down to £150.
Soon after I finished my words I could notice the change into his voice, he started talking about more time to rethinking it, maybe smaller size, then that he didn't know it will cost that much, and at the end he went he'll think about it and will let me know...
As you expect I haven't heard from him since then
Well, this is another sort of people I'm not too appreciate to meet.
Such client used to have ambition to get masterpiece, something extraordinary, but won't pay too much for it, best thing would be if I could do it for fewer ££ to make them happy.
I remember one old case, where two women asked me for commission, and in both cases £70 for A3 size drawing was way too much to accept (two years ago I think), so I started asking what money they were thinking to pay for my about 4 weeks of drawing (it usually takes me that long because of my working hours...), they went then - about £15, or £20 ...
I told them I'm selling my prints for £19, because they cost me that much to pay for colour match, for archival paper to print them on, and including postage it made me to offer the single print fot £19.
So I said why would I draw the portrait for four weeks for you for £20?
Well...
I think some people don't know how much effort we put into the process of drawing for them?

Thank you Mike.
You made the things much clearer.
I'll stick to my already settled prices, and I won't be overcalculating it.
It's not point to consider how much for one bigger face to charge or how much for two smaller...
I'll stick to my price, because at the end is the client, and if I confuse him what I charge for, he might be not appreciate for it at all, because the calculation will get too complicated and unclear...
I like your advice about pricing my art at some gallery?
I never thought about it!
Yes, they will know whether it's worth anything or nothing, and how much eventually...
Great point and advice!
Thank you!

[LindasPencils]

Soon after I finished my words I could notice the change into his voice, he started talking about more time to rethinking it, maybe smaller size, then that he didn't know it will cost that much, and at the end he went he'll think about it and will let me know...
As you expect I haven't heard from him since then

That sort are all over the world. I don't mean to diss people who do this, they may genuinely not have the cash, but your price is your price. Your time and effort, creativity and talent is worth a proper payment.
... and enough of these people who want my work for little or nothing because 'you will enjoy drawing it Linda', or even 'its not like it's real work'. Pah. Dont get me started.
But I had one prospective buyer looking at one of my works in a gallery. I was chatting to him, I knew him slightly and we got on quite well. He was a doctor at a local clinic I have been too. He dressed in sharp clothes and drove a BMW. He seemed to quite like the work and I thought I'd nailed the sale, when he said it was a 'bit pricey' and he would only 'consider' buying it if I offered a 25% reduction in price. I was stunned for a moment that he would ask such a thing, but thinking quickly for once, I asked him if he would 'consider' giving me 25% discount on my next appointment?
he didn't buy the work.

[LindasPencils]

further rant...
It can be discouraging when you have a student who has done a really lovely work and they proudly tell me they have sold it. I am happy for them! Really! Then I find out they have recieved all of $10 or $20 for a piece they spent days on. I despair. And gently tell them they should consider asking much more, but the respons is 'oh no! I couldn't! I am ONLY an amatuer'.
People, please, please, please, value your work. value your effort.

[PogArtTi]

I asked him if he would 'consider' giving me 25% discount on my next appointment?
he didn't buy the work.

Exactly,very true, and I'm impressed very much with your clever response!
In my case it's always about the money as I mentioned before.
They want portrait but half the price.
Lol, honesty lol...
Or like my friends, they coming over and wants portrait because they say I'm drawing nicely, when I ask if they gonna pay, they're making fish faces being surprised I'm asking for money.
The other workmate in past started asking if I could draw something nicely for his son for the birthday.
Soon after we got to the price point, he was considering a post card size commission - because of the money, that he didn't want to pay...
Lol.
And I understand your feeling about your students selling their great work for that less...
You know how good they are, and you know they deserve much more to earn for their art, but they feel they have no name, and they ashamed to ask for more...
I'm very same Linda, so I understand.
I'm working full time for bus company, am I artist or just bus driver who can draw?
Do you know I mean...
Yeah.
With such a feeling it's not easy task to ask for the money you feel it's right.

Thank you very much for your experience sharing Linda!
I'm always proud to be able talk to great artists like you all in here...
I consider it as a success, I mean being a member of the artists forum.
It is success for me.
Thank you.

[JayS]

This is a topic dear to all our hearts. The answer will challenge us all. In a previous life I was a sales person, and then I became what was known as an executive sales trainer. I would go on sales calls with sales people and after the call evaluate, with them, what worked and didn't work. Here is what I think applies to the world of art:

1. If the customer isn't having fun they won't buy. Art is not the necessity food or clothing is so people buy when they really enjoy the work.
2. People don't understand the effort it takes to create art. I have found that it is useful to educate the buyer on how long it takes to do a job and it really pays off. For example I will guide the conversation around to how long the buyer thinks it takes to do a small 8X10" work. They may say 10 minutes. I then say I work at the rate of 1 square inch an hour. so an 8X10" takes 80 hours. at minimum wage of say $12.00 an hour the price should be $960.00 US dollars. Then I might say how about $750.00.
3. People compare price. At art festivals they go around to other artists who do similar work and shop. They are really doing two things. One is educating themselves on who they want to do the work based on perceived quality and style. Again they are looking for what they LIKE. The second bit of education is what they are being asked to pay, reasonable? I have sometimes had people say they want my work at what ever rate I charge. I am always careful to charge what is within reason.
4. I have sometimes offered discounts such as a friends and family discount for a commission. In the past two years I have had several patrons turn down the discount. One even said that they would let me do the work only if there was no discount involved. Another said that they appreciated the offer but they were proud to support the arts at full price.
5. Sometimes I do things because I want to. I was teaching at a university and the woman who cleaned my classroom lost her dog. She showed me a picture and asked if I would do a drawing. I said yes. She asked how much? I said $25.00. She carried the drawing around for a week showing all her friends the art. I couldn't have asked for better advertising.
6. There is an old adage in sales that says you never begin to sell until the prospect says, "No." You then have to find out why they are saying no. Price is always an issue but people are embarrassed to tell you they can't afford the price. You just have to understand it is about them and not about you or the quality of your work.
7. If you price your work too far below perceived market value people won't buy. Work to price your work in the market. You often find out by asking, "What do you think a work like this is worth?" It may surprise you to discover their price is higher. I was selling a print at an art festival in Jackson Hole Wyoming. A young woman crawled under the back wall of my tent. She asked the price of the print. I said $25.00. She said she would be back. A little while later she came back carrying a sock filled with change. She asked me to count the money. I refused. I said that any one who wanted art that bad could be trusted.
8. People expressing a wish that they could afford your work are paying you a complement especially when their walls are full. A lot of time people are just looking for an escape. They are not serious. And it is OK to say thanks and move on.
9. Finally, do only what you want. Your value as an artist isn't in the price people pay. If they buy only when they are having fun remember that you have every right to do what you enjoy. Your work will show it.
If you think about it, I'll bet you do all of these things either consciously or unconsciously.

[Mike Sibley]

7. If you price your work too far below perceived market value, people won't buy. Work to price your work in the market.

Lots of excellent advice! Thanks, Jay.

I'm just singling this one out because it follows my own thinking. I look at this way:

If you undervalue, your potential customer is thinking:
"I like this, but I probably shouldn't, because the artist doesn't think it's as good as I do."

And if you overvalue, they think:
"I like this, but I don't like it THAT much!"
or
"I like this, and it must be worth the asking price... but I don't understand why."

I found my happy medium not by asking customers what they thought it should be worth, but by asking gallery owners for their advice. They are perfectly placed to generate the most financial return while making regular sales.