DrawWithMike.net

Since the end of April I've been in constant motion. From the wilds of Colorado to New York, Norfolk, Dallas, Denver, Salt Lake, Coastal Oregon and back home though the desert of Nevada. I've seen sea lions, Otters, Deer, Peregrin Falcons, Wild Horses, a salamander and even some Big Horn Sheep. The joys of travel are the people we meet and the sights that promise to overwhelm us. The downside is that the travel is over all too quickly. I apologize for being out of touch and seeing your wonderful art.

The Big Horn Sheep, it turns out are about a 100 miles from home so they are within a couple of hours drive. I plan on going to see them again soon.

JayS!
What you do for living then, if you travelling a lot?
One thing that comes up to my mind might be - a lory driver?
I used to be for a year, so that's why it's first thing I'm thinking of
Very nice drawings, detailed, and with attention to detail!
For my personal taste, I'd adjust value around, to make the animal a bit more pop, more standing out
It is probably due to the quality of upload, so to me the value is looking evenly layered throughout, so the animal is... how to say - blended within surrounding
I have the same issue all the time, when uploading my drawing, lol
I can see it different on my wall
Uploaded photo do accent colour differently, which isn't matching what I was working on
Beautiful drawings dear JayS

PogArt, Greetings my friend. What I do for a living? Good question. I really am, was, a Cowboy. I have a ranch in Northwestern Colorado. Climate change is hitting us hard. Drought has dried up our range and forced us to sell all cattle. So, is a cowboy without a cow still a cowboy? Still have about 11 horses. Some have suggested that I am of an age to be retired. The stubborn side of my nature rejects that notion. So, I work at being an artist. Fortunately, I have some limited income from investments in my more youthful days and my wife loves to travel....

You've hit the artistic nail on the head. The values are too similar between animal and background. Therefore, the animal doesn't pop. I've been debating about making the animal darker vs. making the background darker to provide the contrast. Here my sense of reality is fighting with my artistic sense. In reality the values of the animal and the value of the sandstone formations of the canyon walls are very similar. In life movement gives the animal away and rocks don't move. As Mike says the artist can use his own mind to create a new reality. In my mind I see a shadow on the rock wall that would make it darker.

On another level I've been playing with a completely different notion. The effects of this different strategy are more easily seen in the drawing of the little big horn. This is the concept of making the focal point of the drawing more intrinsically interesting by the design of the lines within the drawing itself. Eyes, nose, ears and horns have really interesting organic shapes. By using the design of the line and differencing values within these shapes I had hoped to make the subject more of a natural draw to the eye. Ha! Animal magnetism! I think this served to make the little big horn's character stand out, but the competing design of the background takes away, or minimizes, the overall effect.

It has been about a year since I joined this forum. In retrospect I value highly the thoughts of everyone who has commented on my work. The time has come for me to ask if over the course of the year have you seen improvement in my work?

JayS wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 4:12 pm PogArt, Greetings my friend. What I do for a living? Good question. I really am, was, a Cowboy.

A COWBOY !!!
I'm VERY impressed !!!
You know...
As a child I was growing on Western movies!
The Cowboy to me is like a part of my childhood, and actually a big part of my whole life!
I feel honoured to know you dear friend!
Within my love to Western movies, Cowboys, Native Americans is the way I'm dressing, where the main focal point is the Western hat of course (I bet we've discussed it some time ago).
Thank you for share your story!
Respect.

and forced us to sell all cattle. So, is a cowboy without a cow still a cowboy?

Sorry to hear this has happened...
And yes! - is the tiger still a tiger if locked up in the Zoo?
You was born and lived as a Cowboy, you'll always BE!

Still have about 11 horses.

Now you talking!
Wow!!!

So, I work at being an artist.

Congratulations!!!
I wanted badly to become an artist, but I'm getting through downs and ups, and can not find where I belong...
I do commissions occassionally, that's the only time when I earn some minor money, but I wish I could do it for living JayS.

You've hit the artistic nail on the head. The values are too similar between animal and background. Therefore, the animal doesn't pop. I've been debating about making the animal darker vs. making the background darker to provide the contrast. Here my sense of reality is fighting with my artistic sense.

Fair enought to me!
You're the artist and the only one who decides what your art shall look like!
I know exactly what you mean, I understand your point of view JayS.

It has been about a year since I joined this forum. In retrospect I value highly the thoughts of everyone who has commented on my work. The time has come for me to ask if over the course of the year have you seen improvement in my work?

To be honest I'll need to have a look through your arts one by one to tell you trully what I can see.
But one thing I can tell you right now.
I believe our arts are like music tracks.
All songs can not be equally good, even though composed by the same musician.
Some are better, some not as good, but the judgement is always very personal thing!
What's attracting me and what I do appreciate, can be opposite to somebody else's sense of art.
To me good art isn't necessarily suppose to be nicely, with proper technique drawn!
It can be left over unfinished sketch, that after years may will remind something unique, and it could be better art, than technically correct latest drawing...
It is very subtle thing (I guess).
To me we do improve all the time, we do understand more all the time...
Your latest arts don't have to be the pop star music hits necessarily, to make you aware of the understanding you did include within your strokes is improved more, than at any other earlier art - that you've drawn some time ago...

This is a very interesting discussion! Artur, I like you comparison to music because, yes, every piece is unique, and that’s as it should be.

Jay, I think you’re the best judge of your own progress. Your knowledge of animal anatomy comes through loud and clear in your artwork. More and more, your compositions evoke strong emotion and that’s the mark of an artist in my books!

Yes, contrast can definitely bring attention to a subject, but so can differences in texture for example. I think that’s working well for you in the first image. I might just be careful of how a background intersects with a subject. For example, I might have eliminated that triangular shape between the horns of the sheep in the first image. It was probably in your reference, but I think that it competes a little bit with those beautifully rendered horns. Same with that long dark shape that seems to be coming directly out of the chin. It could be moved to the right or left. What I’m getting at is that the silhouette or outline of the subject might read more clearly.

I’m a fan of your work and of your subject matter. I always look forward to your posts!

Everything that Laurene and Artur (Pog) said - especially in relation to your love of animals showing through.

One piece of advice, though - don't just accept the backgrounds you see in your references. Take from them what you can use - anything that will enhance your foreground subject. If something sparks an idea but isn't itself right - alter it. And if it does nothing to explain the story (or just causes confusion) - omit it.

Nobody but you has seen the reference. Don't ever feel tied to it.

When you accept it "as is" you can miss important aspects, accept camera distortion as being real, or miss awkward optical illusions. Laurene mentioned two areas in the top drawing that could have been improved. There's another that bothers me, because it could have been so easily fixed. The right-hand horn appears to be curving over something dark and woolly. It's just an unfortunate coincidence that the curve of the horn exactly runs into the top of whatever that shape is (I'm assuming it's rock where the snow has parted). But in reality, that shape is some way behind the horn. The best way to show that is to make sure the edges of the horn are super-sharp, and the shape has softer edges. And, of course, there is absolutely no reason why that shape has to be - That shape or - Where it is.

And another, related to that, is what I think are trees (or buffalo?) in the background along a river are too sharp for their distant position. Soften them, and the ear and horn on that side will spring forwards.

Apologies for taking the liberty of altering your drawing, but it's easier for me to describe what I mean that way.

Arthur, Laurene and Mike,
There is much to be said for your feedback. In short, this first year here has come and gone and I've signed up for a second year. The time and effort invested here his worth more than the price of admission. I need to see what lessons I've missed and pick up the things I've missed. And work through the lessons yet to come.
I want to say a word about my being the best judge of my own work. In a nutshell I don't see what you see. I don't think like you do. Consequently, your view is invaluable to me. And I hope that I can offer you some constructive insight now and then. We broaden each other's perspective. Someday I would like to sit down at Mike's place with all of the forum members and have each person share their work and talk about life and art. I'm a big fan of watching people talk, seeing their nonverbal communication and enjoying a more complete conversation than what technology alone provides.
Artists here will understand that we all work, to some degree, in isolation. It's just me and my pencil. And the pencil talks. But it is still a conversation of one. I try to check the id, ego and super ego at the door of my studio. Objectivity demands truth undistorted by ego-centric judgement. Mike has commented at least once that a plan is needed. My plan begins with field work and observation. When the drawing begins there are many debates with myself about what to include or exclude. When I'm working toward an image in my mind I sometimes wonder if trying to express in words what I think I see in my head would help? What I'm finding is that the journey with each piece of art changes the art as it progresses. (Not always an improvement,) There is great value in seeing what others see. Working in the hinterlands of Northwestern Colorado among the same 1000 people, I've found that fresh eyes are hard to find. I am often greeted with comments like, "You know I'm a fan of your work," or "Your stuff is always beautiful." But these comments are not at the same helpful level as advice from artists who see with fresh eyes.
Mike's comments on little big horn are a fine example. Those are trees, not buffalo, (Wish I have thought of buffalo) from over 1500 feet in elevation. I had hoped in my plan that the river would give some depth in the distance, but it didn't work out. I was at such an elevation that I was even with the bottom of the clouds in the distance. Your thought about fuzzying them out may help. But somehow, I think the issue is larger. I'm trying to suggest mile of distance. Size is one part of the equation. There must be more. The simple solution would be to extend the canyon wall to cover the distance.
Laurene I appreciated your thoughts about animal anatomy and composition. These are two things that have become almost subliminal to me. Yet I am very conscious of developing them. It is weird how animals are easy to draw. Grass, trees, shrubs are beasts. I want to make them friends. To that end I wander around with books of native plants trying to learn their names and uses.
Arthur, Music fills my drawing time. I use tempo to slow down and bluegrass to speed up. Yet I want each piece to be better than the last. I don't want throwbacks to earlier times. I look at some of the art hanging on my walls at home and a couple of pieces are the best I've ever done, yet I don't think that they will be the best I will ever do. Sometimes I think I can do better. Sometimes I want everything to be better. An instructor of botanical illustration at the Denver Botanic Gardens said to me that he though I have plateaued. He said that the only solution he knew was to work through it. He said I might see an improvement after a 100 more drawings. Your comments and this forum may help break barriers.
Thank you. There is more to come. Wait till you see the sea otter having a squid for lunch! Must be the best meal ever!

JayS wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 9:52 pm I've found that fresh eyes are hard to find. I am often greeted with comments like, "You know I'm a fan of your work," or "Your stuff is always beautiful." But these comments are not at the same helpful level as advice from artists who see with fresh eyes.

Yes exactly JayS!
That's why I left facebook drawing groups long ago.
I did find out there's no constructive feedbavk, but kindness only.
Kindness is good too, but it is aiming to encourage somebody and motivate him to keep drawing...
Unfortunately, on the other hand this kindness is a very harmful behaviour.
It's because it's so easy to start belueving, that I'm super artist, and everybody is stunned by my artwork!
At this fatal point, if we do mistakes, we won't correct them ever, as we won't be aware they exist!
Because we're briliant artists!, aren't we?
It's like every day greetings ...
Hey, how are you?!
It's usually an empty saying, to show kindness, but not interest to somebody's circumstances rather...
I found out (unfortunately), that when sometime I started sharing my story further, the person who did ask (how are you) didn't bother to listen too much...
So the feedback is very important, and constructive criticism JayS, you very right!
This forum is an outstanding and unique example of how the members suppose to show respect, friendship and proper feedback.

It's all about QUALITY in here, not quantity
You may get only one reply within a week time, but it is much more priceless, than a 1000 thumbs up on any fb drawing group!

Arthur, Music fills my drawing time. I use tempo to slow down and bluegrass to speed up.

This is how I'm immersing myself into an art world as well
Headphones on, music on, full isolation - just me and MY WORLD

Time matters. I have lined my studio walls with a very short shelf. 4" wide to be exact. The shelf has a piece of edging glued to the front so I can put drawings on the shelf and they won't slip off. Then I can look at them for a while before I think about framing them. After months of study I realized that the drawings of the sheep were not standing out from the background. So I darkened them. Now, I think, they are a little better.

Hiya JayS, it's always good to hear from you.
It seems to me, that you're very connected to your drawings.
I'm opposite.
I'm trying things, if they don't work the way I like - I'm moving on, and don't turn back.
You keep thinking of the past artwork, and even after long time, you trying to make it better.
I think that's different approach to art making, as you are learning by coming back to the previous drawings, where I am starting new projects instead.
If I could have compare you and me, you are showing patience, I'm keep rushing...

This nice drawing has been discussed already dear friend, so I'm struggling to add anything more, than it was said before...
The only thing to mention, it's maybe these sharp edges, patches spread out all around your nice drawing.
At first look at your art, they do distract from the main subject.

Sharp edges bringing them into focus, that makes them equally matching the foreground (the sheep), therefore the background is competing the foreground - to be at same position.
The above *fight is lessen the 3D effect of the drawing.
Also, because of the sharp edges, I can connect some patches of the background to the features of the sheep instead with easy, what makes me harder to distinguish/read the body of the sheep.

For example the wider horn I can easily extend further up to the top of the drawing, just following the background lined up to it, which is matching the direction the horn is heading with its curved edge...
The second example is the hidden eye's edge, where following the darker sharp edge of the background, I can follow it from the eye itself, down to the page, just because the background sharp edge is perfectly matching the eye line/curve ...

I bet I did mention this before JayS, so I feel I'm repeating myself, but I think it is important, that you may start considering blurring your background more efficiently, to make it less prominent, what will make your main subject much more standing out of the background.
That's all I can suggest basing on my own experience and thoughts in my mind

All I did share to you, it's my own consideration based on the first look at your nice artwork JayS, so bare in mind I might be very wrong too
Best regards!
Are you much better now?!
I hope so!
Art.