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Here is the 3rd start of this drawing. The list of thoughts about this drawing are all about negative drawing. The trouble is I think I've been thinking about negative drawing for years and I still get it wrong. Or perhaps what I mean to say is that I'm doing it with bad habits that I need to turn upside down. NEGATIVE DRAWING Part 1 helps a lot Mike. I think I'll have to watch it a few more times to get it right.
1) I need to learn how to not draw the positive.
2) Starting over on this drawing I discovered that tracing the projection messed with the perspective. The antlers were more than half an inch shorter than they should have been. And there were a number of other little things that were not proportional as well. Griding gave me a fresh perspective along with my compass.
3) I decided to start drawing the background. In the reference it is really dark. So I printed another reference much lighter. This helped me see the negative spaces between the trees.
4) I used the idea of the reference card to isolate small areas of the drawing, the same size of the grid, to get a more concentrated view.
5) In the background the negative spaces are not black but range from light to dark. The sides of the trees in shadow are all darker than the spaces between the trees. So, I violated the principle of working from black to light. However, I had already established the blackest areas of the drawing in the shadows under the deer.
6) I drew the areas between four trees on the left side of the background. Then I drew middle values inside the grey areas to suggest trees in the way back.
7) Impatience got the best of me, and I had to draw the trees. I wanted to see what they would look like. I realized then that I was also drawing the positive of the leaves in the bushes which is also a violation of organic shape principles. Ratz.
8) The realization crept in that I was mixing positive and negative drawing. The downside of this is that I'm potentially confusing the two doing one when I should be doing the other?
9) By leaving the grass alone and working on the forest I have been rolling over in the back of my head images of the grass based on your examples Mike. Most importantly, I think, I'm thinking about areas where the grass should be crisp and tall and where it can be suggestions of grass and more a hint rather than a uniform presence. Variety is the spice of life, right? At least it will add interest.
10) A note about recession. I was concerned that the forest line was too regular. So, I varied the lower positioning of the trunks to add depth. We will see how it turns out.
11) PogArt, you honor me. Thanks for your thoughts.

Don't thank me please
I'm keep reading your description.
Good thoughts and strong attitude you have to get it done dear friend
It is very time consuming doing the same things over again, but you will learn a lot!!!
You see, you much better than I ever be, as I would rather move on to next drawing, than keep study the present one...
I'm quickly losing my interest, and if the drawing takes too long, I feel less empathy to finish it off.
Keep working on it, it's a great lesson to me too

PogArt, You are absolutely right the next drawing is much more compelling than the one I'm working on. The reality is I am working on both at the same time. When I solve the puzzle of this one the next will be much better for it. In a way I'm on to the next as this is in progress. Mike said once that time doesn't matter. It is the quality of the drawing that counts. Once time has no meaning then one is free to be here and now. The other thought that comes to mind is that we build on what we have learned in the past for the future. In a way it doesn't matter whether the lessons learned are in this drawing or in the one three drawings ago. We don't forget when repetition of good work strengthens what we know and transforms it into muscle memory. For me I have quite a few bad habits that I learned by trial and error that need to be unlearned. The Black Tailed Deer are what I'm using to unlearn bad habits and replace them with good new habits. When the deer are done, they will be history and the lessons learned will move forward. Each of us will learn in our own ways. I'm not better than you. Maybe we just learn differently?

When you say you lose interest and feel less empathy to finish off drawings that take too long... You I believe, are talking about your emotions. When you look at the word emotion and break it into e motion the e stands for energy and motion speaks for itself. Energy in motion. Nothing ever gets done without emotion. In service to us artists it is the character we express in the drawing. It is the feeling that comes from what you see. Ultimately it is the reason for doing anything. It can weaken with familiarity but strengthen with determination.

What you are doing now is work filled with character. Your future is bright.

I am really learning a lot by following these conversations and applaud all of your efforts and frank conversations about your work! I do like your deer and the composition is excellent!

It is difficult doing negative drawing and you really can learn a lot by redrawing and playing with it! I find backgrounds the most difficult, and really vary as to how realistic my backgrounds are (and starting to accept that some will be more realistic than others until I learn more). It just takes time to develop different skills and we are all developing artists (and will always have things to master).

You are getting great feedback which will strengthen your work. I must say, you have very insightful comments that you make on other artist's drawings so you have a good knowledge base and you are talented!

Jay - I think you have hit the 'curve'. That part of the curve where it gets very steep and challenging (but rewarding) to climb.
What I mean by that is when we start out on this journey, most people see a photo and want to draw 'that'. Exactly. And in one way it is easy to do so, as the photographer had laid it all out for you and answered all the questions of composition, lighting, story, etc. Using such photos is a great learning tool, but in reality is isn't YOUR art, it is someone else's.
Then we start to take our own photos. And dammit, the bird flies off, the light is wrong, the camera battery dies. Or something. And as an artist you have to start to think and compose a work based on an IDEA rather than an ideal photo. You are doing this in the Otter piece.
Now you are doing this in this work. Being analytical about your composition and creating your own interpretation of the event.
But I would caution you about becoming TOO analytical about certain elements. For example, in your first attempt I noticed that the grass was very regimented and solider-like with a lot of repetition of shapes. I know you will have read Mike's tips on drawing grass, so if you can, try to be a bit more free and natural with your initial strokes before honing in on the dark negative shapes. So, essentially what you did on the Otter rocks... but with grass. lol. I hope you understand what I mean!
You are to be congratulated on this work and the Otter, you are taking a leap into the unknown - you will land in a new place that is better and full of surprise!

Hi Kwheller and Linda. Thank you for your thoughts. You encourage me. There is an old adage that says, "If you find yourself digging a hole, stop digging." There must be a corollary, "If the going is tough, get tough and keep going." Sometimes I think that I'm a little warped, hopefully in a good way, The challenge is fun.

A long time ago, more than half a century now, I loved photography and would take photos with anything I could get my hands on. And every time I took a good photo, I would look at it and wish I could draw so that I could make it better. That is the photo isn't quite good enough, dammit. It is a great feeling when people look at my reference pics and comment that the finished art is way better. Yes! Art for me is a search for beauty. The photo is a starting point and Linda the challenge is really in the IDEA. I have had an image in my head about a horse my sister owns that was attacked by a cougar when he was about 9 weeks old. He was saved by his mother. But the image floating in my head is the IDEA that someday will be created without any reference pictures. Everything that happened is now stored in my imagination and every once in a while, begs to come out and live on paper.

Your caution about becoming too analytical is great. The robot in me just keeps on keeping on. I need to feel more about what I'm doing. Then those feelings need to turn into consciousness about what matters in the world of variety and interest. Maybe when I'm doodling what I'm doing can be on auto pilot but in the drawing the creative process demands a balance between feeling and thought working together.

Here is Black Tailed Bucks 5. It has background and grass started. The background on the right side needs a lot of work, The big tree in the middle is telling me that it is not round enough. It isn't standing as a tree strong and true. So, it is a puzzle demanding dimension. The grass is much freer. It is smaller. that pervious grass. It is also much more random. This band of grass is in the shadow of the forest, so I may have to overlay a little more shadow. Before I do I will want to see what the middle and foreground grass tones look like.

It is snowing here in northwestern Colorado. We've been living in extreme drought for more than 22 years. Rain and snow is a wonderful blessing. So, to everyone Merry Christmas!

Greetings and welcome to 2022. I figured its about time I posted an update. This post represents some progress but is nowhere complete. I want to add quite a bit of variety in shading. The right side background lacks additional definition.

Warm greetings in 2022 as well dear friend
Everybody can tell, that you are very patiently working hard on this art, to make it as good looking as you can, and to improve your skills while working on it - great job indeed!
If you like to hear my personal opinion, I'm very chaotic regarding drawing, what's very often driving me to sort of troubles at the end of drawing, because once you have begun with sort of chaos, it's difficult to sort it out later
So from my chaotic perspective of view I love your deers very much, so the background and the grass behind the animals - spot on - the grass!
But the foreground grass is too detailed to my chaotic nature if you know I mean
It's obvious you put a lot of time to draw it precisely dear friend, but I like the background grass much more, because it's looking more connected to the nature of a harmony...
The foreground grass looks very evenly spread from left edge to the right., it reminds me look of outlines rather than a living field of grass JayS...
Because you worked so patiently on it, it's looking to me a bit like a single stamp of grass - multiplied throughout to cover up the space...
It's because you did it with your heart, and too much focuse on it
Too much care about those single grass leaves I think - thus leaves looking very identically, like the daylight was treating every single leaf with the same attention to it, no matter if it's at the left or right side of the drawing page... - can you see it JayS
Forgive me if it's different!
I might got fooled by the quality of your photo uploaded - I'm writing my feelings, related directly to the photo I can see on my screen my friend
Therefore the lighting is compromised, as every spot I look at looks like perfect copy of the next spot - if you know I mean...
The background grass you can feel much more, see the shadows and the light, different patches around.
It's imitating the living grass much more, than a bit too equally/technically drawn example at the foreground dear JayS
It's kind of more natural, spontaneous and - chaotic - but at same time so soft, enjoyable to look at, and follow its shadows, lighting... beautiful
It may help illustrate what I mean by FILLING UP THE SPACE - if you imagine you are about to draw some nice little field flower...
Imagine it to be at the centre of your page...
Then in 2hours you have drawn it beautifully!
Then you about to drawn the grass around it, but instead of making the grass like an addition to compliment that main subject (the flawer) you are so focused to draw the grass very precisely, leaf after leaf...
Can you see my point a bit better?
It wouldn't be necessary at all
In other words - I'd focus on the main subject much more, using the grass as a filler of empty space rather, than spending equal time to compliment both
Remember it's meant to be compliment only and appreciation for your hard work in here - nothing else

PogArt, I understand your comments and agree with them. I' m trying to break what I see as a bad habit. My mind says get loose and my hand says not so fast! Let's see what happens by the end of today.

JayS wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 8:19 pm PogArt, I understand your comments and agree with them. I' m trying to break what I see as a bad habit. My mind says get loose and my hand says not so fast! Let's see what happens by the end of today.

Thank you for understanding my comment dear
I'm totally opposite - I'm struggling to change it
I'm chaotic rather, and the more precisely I want to draw - the more struggle I have
Can we swap somehow